I wrote down on my post it note the text "Is anything too hard for the Lord?" I think too many times I worry about the stupidest things, trying to figure out how I'm going to solve them - when I should be going to God for help and direction!
I thought more about Sarah laughing at God and her comment about being too old and was thinking that perhaps she was also feeling that wow, thanks alot for giving me my dream come true - now I'm too old too enjoy it! How selfish we are in thinking we know better than God's plan!
I also thought it was interesting how powerful sin really is. When Abraham told Lot and his family to leave Sodom, Lot preferred to stay in a neighboring town rather than follow God's advice. Lot knew the sin in Sodom was not good, but it was very hard for him and his wife to walk away from it! That's why Lot's wife turned back and became a pillar of salt.
I was thinking more about what you said yesterday about the faith of Abraham, and it reminded me of something that I had heard before, maybe a sermon or something. Abraham understood about sin and offerings, and how they pointed to God sending his Son to die for us. And that he thought that when God asked him to do this, that Isaac must be the chosen one, to take on the sins to be sacrificed.
Issac, what was going through your head when your dad bound you and put you on as sacrifice? Lot, what in the world were you thinking offering your two daughters to the men of the city to do as they will, just to protect two strangers in your house? My goodness.
Also, I remember thinking this as I read through the books of Moses a few years ago...Look how important first time obedience was to God! He does have patience too especially when Abram, like a certian 4 year old I know, asks nearly the same question after question. But, He is serious. Like in the Garden of Eden, our first example, He said don't eat this fruit one time, and they did and they were punished. None of this, "Didn't I tell you not to eat the fruit? Do NOT eat the fruit! Daddy said, no, no. You will sit in time out now and next time do not eat the fruit. If you eat the fruit again, you are going to get a spanking..."
And what about the Do not look back instruction to Lot & family? My goodness, there is sulfur and fire coming out of heaven burning an entire city, and you don't even peak! I am afraid I may have been salt too. But there again, first time obedience.
I am taking a Growing Kids God's Way class and they are big in the first time obedience and training your child to this standard (in little steps, of course) and as I read through these stories, I am convinced my children need this. If they can't obey me, How are they going to obey the Lord?
Erin, in my study Bible it said regarding Lot giving his daughters to his guests: 1) Hospitality was considered to be one of the highest measures of a man. To take a stranger in and let him eat your food was to guarantee his safety - even at personal risk. 2) wives and daughters were typically viewed as property in his culture. 3) Living as he did in a degenerate society, Lot's values were likely off center (you think?!). Sin distorts priorities and blurs the line between right and wrong. The combination of these factors may have caused Lot to value the safety of his guests more than the well-being of his daughters.
I agree with you on the first time obedience thing Erin, but God did do first time obedience with Adam and Eve and look at all the other times first obedience was done, punishments made, but sin's were still committed. Also, there are times in the Bible where God did send a warning (prophet) before punishment was made to the people. I think it is important to have your children obey your authority, but God did not always have first time obedience with his people. I was doing some goggle searching and here are some examples the website listed:
For example, in Jeremiah 18:11, to those under the Old Covenant Law (certainly a performance-based system), the Lord threatens consequences and then appeals to His people to change their ways.
“…Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh, turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds!”
Before God sent punishment in the Old Testament (and I’m purposely choosing pre-Cross situations here) He often first sent prophets who exhorted and pleaded with His people to change their disobedient behavior. This applied to God’s “children,” Israel, as well as His non-Covenant children.
Consider what Jonah was sent to do. The prophet went because God sent him to the evil city of Ninevah (well, the prophet went eventually–note the non-first-time obedience, ahem, and note that even with God’s firm correction, Jonah’s heart was still unchanged, though many parenting teachers say that a godly parent must chastise until the heart attitude of the child is truly changed). Jonah was sent specifically to give a warning of consequence in the hopes that the consequences would not have to be met. When Ninevah repented, God did not punish them for their sins but rejoiced at their change of heart (Jonah 4:11)!
Often, God waited (longer than I would have!) until the wickedness was very severe before He brought consequences. The Isrealites would be in the throes of terrible wickedness (injustice and violence to the poor, the widows, the orphans), something I’d want to stomp out FAST, and yet God would plead,
“Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’” Ezekiel 33:11
To a very evil Israel, God appealed for change a long time before bringing down punishment:
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, please for the widow.
Come now and let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they will be like wool.
If you will consent and obey, you will eat the best of the land. But if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword. Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” Isaiah 1:16-20
God did not require physical punishment before receiving their repentance. Instead, he pleaded with them to change their ways so as to avoid the consequences that He did not want them to experience. He did not demand first-time obedience. In fact, when Yahweh pleaded with Israel above to reform, they were already pretty far gone (see Isaiah 1:2-4, 21-23 for a few details).
So even under the pale of the demanding performance-oriented Old Covenant Law, God still did not always parent the way the first-time-obedience-or-get-spanked teachers say is God’s way.
It is wise to seek ways to teach our children to follow God’s good paths. But in so doing, it’s not wise to make authoritative statements about how God wants us to do that, when God Himself did not do it that way with His own children.
(copied from http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/scripture-speaks-on-first-time-obedience/)
just so you know, I did copy what was posted from a website - those aren't my words, so I hope I didn't offend anyone...I've just struggled with some of the principals of GKGW as truly being God's way...I think there are many different ways to grow your children into God and there are some very important things that GKGW teaches - but I don't feel it is the only way to raise your children...
you know, I was thinking some more about the comments, and I know GKGW talks about context as well and that you need to understand the context of your child prior to discipline - for example you told your child to stay in his bed and you happen to find him out of his bed - first reaction would be punishment for disobeying but after understanding context of why your child was out of his bed - helping his brother who fell out of his bed, then punishment would not be made...perhaps that was the same case with God in some situations. It reality it is not always 100% first time obedience (just like with your own children) since there are situations when context does play a role. Even though, I know God gave warnings to his people (and I feel He still does it to us today - how many warnings do I get on sins before I listen - and I don't get punished right away or see the immediate results of my wrong doing...) yeah, I don't know the answer, but I just feel God does provide warnings in some cases and is not 100% about first time obedience and I feel that should also be that way we are with our children - I know child rearing can be a touchy topic...I don't mean to upset anyone...
sorry, I just keep thinking about this - God gave 120 years of reprieve before sending the flood - that doesn't sound like first time obedience to me...
wow. I think what I said was misunderstood. I apologize if what I said made everyone think if your child doesn't do what you say immediately you should spank him. That is not what I am saying nor is GKGW saying that. I was just impressed at that moment in scripture how it appears that God says something once and then boom there is the consequence. Thank you for pointing out Jennifer how patient God is with us, and how he pleads with us to change our ways. He is so patient and loving and PATIENT and all those good things you pointed out. It is my prayer that I become more like Him in my attitude toward other people and especially toward my husband and children.
I see what you were saying Erin...it's not that God doesn't allow for anything except first-time obedience or have mercy or patience of course! But I think you're right, teaching children the value of first-time obedience is such an important lesson...and I do think God puts a high value on first-time obedience...just like you would want your child to listen to your FIRST command if you could see he is going into a dangerous situation (like stepping out into the road when a car is coming) for their own safety...I think God often has moments like that with us and we don't even realize it...we don't see the danger of our choices...but it's not up to us to question, only obey.
As I have been listening to the GKGW and actually went through the first time obedience presentation, I have a much better understanding of what it all means...I think the thing I was really struggling with was the idea of first time obedience always meant "first time consequences/punishment" no matter what...but that's not how God is nor what GKGW teaches...I apologize for my ignorance beforehand...I'm always growing and learning! I agree that first time obedience is the desired result for all of us, not just our children! Just think of how much trouble, problems, and issues we would be free of if we ourselves always followed first time obedience to God's rules! Anyway, sorry again for my rambling thoughts and ideas as I was trying to come to grips of what first time obedience means - I have a much better understanding of it, now!
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I wrote down on my post it note the text "Is anything too hard for the Lord?" I think too many times I worry about the stupidest things, trying to figure out how I'm going to solve them - when I should be going to God for help and direction!
I thought more about Sarah laughing at God and her comment about being too old and was thinking that perhaps she was also feeling that wow, thanks alot for giving me my dream come true - now I'm too old too enjoy it! How selfish we are in thinking we know better than God's plan!
I also thought it was interesting how powerful sin really is. When Abraham told Lot and his family to leave Sodom, Lot preferred to stay in a neighboring town rather than follow God's advice. Lot knew the sin in Sodom was not good, but it was very hard for him and his wife to walk away from it! That's why Lot's wife turned back and became a pillar of salt.
I was thinking more about what you said yesterday about the faith of Abraham, and it reminded me of something that I had heard before, maybe a sermon or something. Abraham understood about sin and offerings, and how they pointed to God sending his Son to die for us. And that he thought that when God asked him to do this, that Isaac must be the chosen one, to take on the sins to be sacrificed.
oh, that makes sense...but then I wonder if Abraham felt disappointment that his son wasn't the "chosen one"...
Issac, what was going through your head when your dad bound you and put you on as sacrifice? Lot, what in the world were you thinking offering your two daughters to the men of the city to do as they will, just to protect two strangers in your house? My goodness.
Also, I remember thinking this as I read through the books of Moses a few years ago...Look how important first time obedience was to God! He does have patience too especially when Abram, like a certian 4 year old I know, asks nearly the same question after question. But, He is serious. Like in the Garden of Eden, our first example, He said don't eat this fruit one time, and they did and they were punished. None of this, "Didn't I tell you not to eat the fruit? Do NOT eat the fruit! Daddy said, no, no. You will sit in time out now and next time do not eat the fruit. If you eat the fruit again, you are going to get a spanking..."
And what about the Do not look back instruction to Lot & family? My goodness, there is sulfur and fire coming out of heaven burning an entire city, and you don't even peak! I am afraid I may have been salt too. But there again, first time obedience.
I am taking a Growing Kids God's Way class and they are big in the first time obedience and training your child to this standard (in little steps, of course) and as I read through these stories, I am convinced my children need this. If they can't obey me, How are they going to obey the Lord?
I should be speaking in the present as to How important I feel first time obedience IS to God, not WAS...
Erin, in my study Bible it said regarding Lot giving his daughters to his guests: 1) Hospitality was considered to be one of the highest measures of a man. To take a stranger in and let him eat your food was to guarantee his safety - even at personal risk. 2) wives and daughters were typically viewed as property in his culture. 3) Living as he did in a degenerate society, Lot's values were likely off center (you think?!). Sin distorts priorities and blurs the line between right and wrong. The combination of these factors may have caused Lot to value the safety of his guests more than the well-being of his daughters.
I agree with you on the first time obedience thing Erin, but God did do first time obedience with Adam and Eve and look at all the other times first obedience was done, punishments made, but sin's were still committed. Also, there are times in the Bible where God did send a warning (prophet) before punishment was made to the people. I think it is important to have your children obey your authority, but God did not always have first time obedience with his people. I was doing some goggle searching and here are some examples the website listed:
For example, in Jeremiah 18:11, to those under the Old Covenant Law (certainly a performance-based system), the Lord threatens consequences and then appeals to His people to change their ways.
“…Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh, turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds!”
Before God sent punishment in the Old Testament (and I’m purposely choosing pre-Cross situations here) He often first sent prophets who exhorted and pleaded with His people to change their disobedient behavior. This applied to God’s “children,” Israel, as well as His non-Covenant children.
Consider what Jonah was sent to do. The prophet went because God sent him to the evil city of Ninevah (well, the prophet went eventually–note the non-first-time obedience, ahem, and note that even with God’s firm correction, Jonah’s heart was still unchanged, though many parenting teachers say that a godly parent must chastise until the heart attitude of the child is truly changed). Jonah was sent specifically to give a warning of consequence in the hopes that the consequences would not have to be met. When Ninevah repented, God did not punish them for their sins but rejoiced at their change of heart (Jonah 4:11)!
Often, God waited (longer than I would have!) until the wickedness was very severe before He brought consequences. The Isrealites would be in the throes of terrible wickedness (injustice and violence to the poor, the widows, the orphans), something I’d want to stomp out FAST, and yet God would plead,
“Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’” Ezekiel 33:11
To a very evil Israel, God appealed for change a long time before bringing down punishment:
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, please for the widow.
Come now and let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they will be like wool.
If you will consent and obey, you will eat the best of the land. But if you refuse and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword. Truly, the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” Isaiah 1:16-20
God did not require physical punishment before receiving their repentance. Instead, he pleaded with them to change their ways so as to avoid the consequences that He did not want them to experience. He did not demand first-time obedience. In fact, when Yahweh pleaded with Israel above to reform, they were already pretty far gone (see Isaiah 1:2-4, 21-23 for a few details).
So even under the pale of the demanding performance-oriented Old Covenant Law, God still did not always parent the way the first-time-obedience-or-get-spanked teachers say is God’s way.
It is wise to seek ways to teach our children to follow God’s good paths. But in so doing, it’s not wise to make authoritative statements about how God wants us to do that, when God Himself did not do it that way with His own children.
(copied from http://adventuresinmercy.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/scripture-speaks-on-first-time-obedience/)
just so you know, I did copy what was posted from a website - those aren't my words, so I hope I didn't offend anyone...I've just struggled with some of the principals of GKGW as truly being God's way...I think there are many different ways to grow your children into God and there are some very important things that GKGW teaches - but I don't feel it is the only way to raise your children...
you know, I was thinking some more about the comments, and I know GKGW talks about context as well and that you need to understand the context of your child prior to discipline - for example you told your child to stay in his bed and you happen to find him out of his bed - first reaction would be punishment for disobeying but after understanding context of why your child was out of his bed - helping his brother who fell out of his bed, then punishment would not be made...perhaps that was the same case with God in some situations. It reality it is not always 100% first time obedience (just like with your own children) since there are situations when context does play a role. Even though, I know God gave warnings to his people (and I feel He still does it to us today - how many warnings do I get on sins before I listen - and I don't get punished right away or see the immediate results of my wrong doing...) yeah, I don't know the answer, but I just feel God does provide warnings in some cases and is not 100% about first time obedience and I feel that should also be that way we are with our children - I know child rearing can be a touchy topic...I don't mean to upset anyone...
sorry, I just keep thinking about this - God gave 120 years of reprieve before sending the flood - that doesn't sound like first time obedience to me...
wow. I think what I said was misunderstood. I apologize if what I said made everyone think if your child doesn't do what you say immediately you should spank him. That is not what I am saying nor is GKGW saying that. I was just impressed at that moment in scripture how it appears that God says something once and then boom there is the consequence. Thank you for pointing out Jennifer how patient God is with us, and how he pleads with us to change our ways. He is so patient and loving and PATIENT and all those good things you pointed out. It is my prayer that I become more like Him in my attitude toward other people and especially toward my husband and children.
I see what you were saying Erin...it's not that God doesn't allow for anything except first-time obedience or have mercy or patience of course! But I think you're right, teaching children the value of first-time obedience is such an important lesson...and I do think God puts a high value on first-time obedience...just like you would want your child to listen to your FIRST command if you could see he is going into a dangerous situation (like stepping out into the road when a car is coming) for their own safety...I think God often has moments like that with us and we don't even realize it...we don't see the danger of our choices...but it's not up to us to question, only obey.
As I have been listening to the GKGW and actually went through the first time obedience presentation, I have a much better understanding of what it all means...I think the thing I was really struggling with was the idea of first time obedience always meant "first time consequences/punishment" no matter what...but that's not how God is nor what GKGW teaches...I apologize for my ignorance beforehand...I'm always growing and learning! I agree that first time obedience is the desired result for all of us, not just our children! Just think of how much trouble, problems, and issues we would be free of if we ourselves always followed first time obedience to God's rules! Anyway, sorry again for my rambling thoughts and ideas as I was trying to come to grips of what first time obedience means - I have a much better understanding of it, now!
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